Cracking the Age Grading Code for Swimming with Dr. Jim Parker, MD, EP 329

Why Aging Skews Swim Results

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We are all subject to aging all the way down to the mitochondrial level. We're losing our VO2 max, our ability to consume oxygen, our muscle mass, that's decreasing, peak power, cardiovascular fitness, all that stuff just slowly declines with age. We can fight it and hold it up. But apparently there are some people out there that are they're curve busters. And I think that's great. And their astral score just puts a bright light on them because you knew that person was fast, but when you see their astral score, you're like, oh my, oh my gosh, they're way ahead of what I thought was even humanly possible. Who are these people that are beating these currents?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Outswim Podcast, formerly the Champions Mojo podcast, where we bring you interviews and topics to help you outswim the age curve, outswim the competition, and outswim life's obstacles. We have conversations especially meaningful for master swimmers and anyone striving to perform better in the water or in life. And now your host, Kelly Pallas.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

There's a lot of excitement around a new game-changing tool for master swimmers, and today we are going to dive deep on this tool, the Outswim Score, a universal swim score, an age grading system for master swimming that completely shatters traditional standards and rewrites how you will judge and celebrate your true performance. OutSwim scores your swims from zero to 1,000 plus against the fastest performances ever, adjusted for your exact age, and this creates an equity based on scientifically derived aging curves and how that curve affects your swimming. Your score allows you to compare your swims to other swimmers regardless of age, event, or course. Finally, age grading for the pool. Runners have it in road racing, golfers have it, and now swimmers have it too. Today we are talking with the co-founder of the Out Swim Score, a man who possesses a rare combination to make this happen. The analytical brain of an elite physician, a patented inventor, and a gifted swimmer and cyclist, Dr. Jim Parker. Jim is a board-certified radiologist, which means his entire medical career is grounded in complex data modeling, statistical distributions, and deciphering patterns. Outside of medicine, he's a brilliant inventor and an entrepreneur who co-founded CruisBike, a global recumbent bicycle company using science, biomechanics, and aerodynamics to disrupt the bicycle industry. He's also a champion endurance cyclist himself. Now, I'll share with you that Jim is my younger brother. He started his swimming career by sweeping five blue ribbons every Saturday in summer league, and he grabbed a podium finish in the 50 free in our high school state championships. Together, our shared love of high performance and being adult athletes, Jim and I realized that master swimming had a massive blind spot. Why was the slowing clock the main measure of our performance? Jim took that challenge straight into the data lab, analyzed hundreds of thousands of real-world performances across 22 unique regression curves, and engineered the outswim score. This tool strips away that biological aging tax and finally reveals your true athletic performance. Get ready to change the way you look at your performance as you age.

Building A Modern Age-Grading Model

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Jim, welcome to the Outswim podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Thanks, Kelly. That was a really nice intro. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Okay, Jim, so what about age grading for the pool?

SPEAKER_00 4:15

No one has done age grading like this. There's very few people who have even tried age grading, and the methods have been very crude, very simple, just using little ratios and so forth, or time gaps or corrections of time by adding seconds or subtracting seconds. This is the first very thorough statistical method that I am familiar with. Maybe somebody else did it in some other country that I don't know about. But as far as we know, this is the first modern attempt made in the age of high-speed computers and using spreadsheets and so forth to help crunch these numbers. This is science-based. That R value, that Pearson correlation factor, is 0.986. So we are predicting very accurately what people will do based on their age. So you're 40 years old, you're being compared to all the records that 40-year-olds have set. The outswim score is dynamic. It's going to change and evolve over the years as new records are set. The outswim score treats everyone up to 100, all exactly the same, all fairly. Any meat that's got a whole wide mix of people, they should have an even distribution of outswim scores. There's no reason that younger people in the masters group, it doesn't discriminate against them. Everybody's got a fair shot. And again, it's just mathematics. It's all based on what people across the H spectrum have already done in the master's swimming world. That's how we develop the formulas. It's all accounted for.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I really want to talk about a universal swim score.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Out swim is really exciting. It adds a whole new dimension to look at your swim. Okay. So we swim in 25 yard pools, we swim in 25 meter pools, 50-meter pools, we swim different events, different strokes, different distances. They all have different times. And those times are the goals times are changing as you age. Constantly in new age groups, you have new sets of times you're trying to reach. And it's just it's a lot of data, a lot of numbers, very confusing. You don't have to say I did the 500 in six minutes. That's really good for a 70-year-old. Out swim gives us a number, basically one to a thousand. You can tell me that number, and I can tell you exactly what kind of swimmer that is. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I think this is truly one of the most incredible things about the outswim score, is that it gives us a common language, a common standard, and it takes away everything from age, course, gender, it all gives you a score. And that is just, it's super exciting.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah. Especially once people get familiar with it, which won't take long. Swimmers are very smart. When you analyze different sports, swimmers are always at the top of the accomplishments, the academic success. It won't take long for swimmers to catch on to this and start using it.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I really want to talk about the top things that we can do with the outswim score.

Your Score As A Common Language

SPEAKER_00 7:48

What they want to do is they're going to want to track their personal progress. Okay. You can use it to compare yourself to others, and that's super fun. Once we had this app up, I just kept putting in different times and I'd run spreadsheets. And it's just so fun to see what your out swim score is in these different events. And turns out I thought I was a briskstroker, but really I'm actually better at the 50-free. So it's it's just fun to find out. So tracking your personal performance, what is your, what's your best, what's your strongest event? You might think it's one event, but it's actually a different event if you go by the outstream score, which I think is the most objective way to decide what your best event is. What is it? Second is how are you progressing over time? Are you gaining? I think people are going to love to see their hard work pay off as their outswim score goes up or they maintain it without it dropping.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, the idea of outswimming your aging curve. So everyone is going to slow down on the stopwatch, but you can actually improve in your outswim scores based on outswimming the curve. So I think what's the coolest is when you're swimming against a younger age, a younger person, they might actually win the race and have a faster time on the clock, but an outswim score can determine who actually had a better performance. It's really going to recognize these incredible champions that are putting out times in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s that are incredible performances for where the aging tax has hit them.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And you haven't mentioned another huge use of this is breaking free of the age group brackets, right? When you're at the bottom of your age group, that's when you have the best chance of winning or setting a record. And then you lose interest. Some people might lose interest as they're in the older half of the age bracket because they're going to be slower and then they drift away from scrolling and do something else. But with the outstroke score, it really doesn't matter. There's no reason to back off. There's no reason to be confined by those artificial brackets that box you into these five-year age groups. When we were analyzing one of the meets recently, the Greensboro meet Spring National Championship, we saw events where in the same age group, we saw people competing and they lost to someone else in their age group, but they actually had higher outswim scores than the person they were competing with in their age group because they were at the upper end of their age bracket versus people at the lower end. So this the outswim score is on a in a continuum of age. So we say it's single year. It could actually even be fractions of years, but generally we're going to go with the one-year age group for out swim.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

You don't need brackets. So that is what is really cool because I hear a lot of people say, oh, I can't wait until I age up, and then I'm going to be at the bottom of my age group. So outswim, the data that one puts into outswim is their exact age. It's not an age group. You put in your exact age, your gender, your yards, meters, or short course meters or long course meters. So you put in the course, then you put in your time and the stroke. So one of the things which we hope to have a virtual national championship.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah, you certainly do that. You could do it per event. Who's the best breaststroker? In any event, you could find that out. Look at the Swords of all the breaststroke and find out who's the best breaststroker. Or you could do it for sprints, or you could do it for mid-distance or long distance and do it for women, you could do it for men. The options are just limitless. How you could use this to compare different performances.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yes. So we've

Goals, Records, And Breaking Brackets

SPEAKER_01 11:44

covered tracking your own progress, eliminating the five-year age bracket, targeting records or goal times. You can reverse engineer. So let's say, hey, I want an outswim score that's going to break the 800 mark. What do I have to do? There's a reverse calculator where you put in the score you want, it'll tell you what time you need to do in that age.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yes. Yeah. Let's say you've never broken 800 before. And yeah, that's your goal. I want to break 800 outswim score. You could figure out what you had to do to get an 800. Yeah. And that would be fun. It's kind of motivating.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yes, that would be fun.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Let's say you want to find a record to beat in your event. You can put in, you can look at the outswell scores for the current records. And if you find one that's got an outswim score that's low, then you could say, okay, I should be able to get that because that's the low end.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

There are low-hanging records at all levels. So there are team records, then you have LMSC records, which are like state records, zone records, national records, and world records. So the low-hanging records evaluation is definitely at all levels. So I love that as an option. And also the reverse engineer. And now's a good time to share the average out swim score.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

I think you're going to find that the averages are going to be between 400 or 500 up to 800 for your typical meets.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

To create the standard, you said you covered about 900,000 times in the database that showed in meets, people who do meets, that the average out swim score was in the 600s.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Well, yeah, it depends on which meets you're looking at. That total 900,000 database, I think actually was even lower than that, maybe around 500. We looked at some other invitational meets, just average meets, not big championship meets, that the scores were in the 600s. So it varies depending on what caliber of swimmers that meet is attracting. So it depends.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I think this would be an incredible tool for new swimmers that are brand new to swimming. And they may swim, let's take a triathlete. A lot of triathletes love to do a 1500 in a meet because it's similar to an open water mile. And they may come in with an outswim score in the four or five hundreds, or maybe even the three or four hundreds when they compare it to Katie Ledecki. Then they can say, Wow, I have moved my outswim score from the 300s to the 400s to the 500s, which is incredible, and a tool that we do need as we age.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

So some of the outswell scores are over a thousand. And that's a whole nother thing that just blows my mind about what out swim can do, but it identifies people that are really smashing the curve. And there's a few people out there that have scores over 1,100. And how

Curve Busters And The 1,100 Club

SPEAKER_00 14:48

are they doing that? Because we are all subject to aging all the way down to the mitochondrial level. We're losing our VO2 max, our ability to consume oxygen, our muscle mass, fitness decreasing, peak power, cardiovascular fitness, all that stuff just slowly declines with age. We can fight it and hold it up. But apparently there are some people out there that are they're curve busters. And I think that's great. And this program just puts a bright light on them because you knew that person was fast, but when you see their astral score, you're like, oh my, oh my gosh, they're way ahead of what I thought was even humanly possible. How are they doing that? So what what kind of food are they eating? Or is it just genetics? Are they just endowed with super genetics? Or is that they have a great training program? So to me, that's a a really exciting area of research. Like, who are these people that are beating these curves?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So Joanne Lelick is 85 years old. And I believe she has one of the highest out swim scores that you found. So I just thought, okay, who is this Joanne Lelik person? And I happened to go to this meet in Dallas, Texas this summer. And lo and behold, Joanne Lelick is on the roster to swim in the meet. And I went up to her and I told her, wow, you're you're my hero, and you have this 1200 out swim score. But I watched Joanne perform at that meet. And this is an 85-year-old woman who looks physically. If you saw her getting on the block, you would look at her and think she's 30 years younger from her body movements. She hopped onto the block. So literally, like a spring to the where I'm at 65, and I literally almost have to hold on to somebody because I'm stepping four feet above a concrete slab that if I fall off of, it's no, if anybody falls off of the block, it's not pretty. And Joanne, it there's no one near her. And she just doo doop, she hops up on the block and she's a super ager. She looks 20 to 30 years younger.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

You knew this because of outswim. And and so you identified her from her outswim score as an exceptional person.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

So there are some people that say, oh, you can't bring the 85 and 90-year-olds into this because they didn't have the same training and the same background. So tell us why outswim top 100 performances won't just end up being all the 90-year-olds. If you can live to 95, you're going to have the top outswim scores.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

So we did find that if you look at all the records, some of the 90-year-olds have very high outswim scores. That's true. But when you look at individual meets, you don't see that. And the reason you don't see that very often is because there's not many of them. It's a very small corner. And a lot of them actually are slow and they don't have high outswim scores. So if you happen to be in a meet with a 90-year-old and they their outswim score beats you, it's legitimate. That's legitimate. But there's just very few of them. Now I think that as more people stay with master swimming into their 90s, it's going to change. The asset score is dynamic. So as people set new records, doesn't change much because I've already updated it with people are breaking records all the time. And I've updated it with the latest, and it changes the SM scores just slightly. Might be a few points off because the records that it's being compared with, which are the absolute world records, the Katie Ledecki Olympic type records versus the Masters records, which are also being reset, the curves are based on those record sets and they're slowly evolving. So you won't see very many 90-year-olds winning. It's just not going to happen at meets. I wish it had would happen more. Hopefully it will.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

So, Jim, what about using outswim for meat managers?

Meet Awards Based On True Performance

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I think it'd be really exciting to have this running at a meet. You could do all kinds of fun, exciting awards based on the outswim score, regardless of age. Just forget about age, just comparing everybody of all the different ages at the meet and just give out awards to the best outswim scores. A meat manager could have this running on their computer and get out swim scores almost live, but you can still do your typical age group awards. And some of the age groups have lots of people, other age groups have very few people. By the way, it's really lonely when you're in your own little age group and there's not many people in your event in your age, because what does a medal mean then at that point, or a ribbon at that point? But with the Astro score, at the end of the meet or the end of the day of the meet, you could award, if you wanted, the top 10 performances overall. Men, women, or you give five to the top men, five to the top women. You could just do it however you wanted. Because those are really your best performers on the age-adjusted curve. And I think that will bring people back. Because if you engage swimmers, you recognize their excellence, they're going to appreciate that and they're going to come back to your events. So I think meat managers are going to want to add outswim to their services.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Could it be like a 5k where you could calculate all this before everybody's out of the shower?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Oh, absolutely. The data is there. It's just a spreadsheet just calculates the outswim score, and then you can rank by outswim score. It's very simple. It might take them a few extra minutes at the end of the day or whenever they want to do the awards, but it's pretty quick. Yes, that is a great use for that. Now, I've got something you might be interested in. I've got I I just sorted a list from the uh 2026 Spring Nationals in Greensboro. Can I just read some names to the very top, the top scoring? Sure. Yeah, okay. So Charlotte Davis and the 50 fly. She got 1,078 outscrewing points. There's a Joan Finsgrath, Penny Noise, Cecilia McCloskey, a man named Lawrence Day, Tom Wolf. So these are some names. Jenny Thompson, do you recognize any of those people?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yes, I recognize all of them, including Jenny Thompson, who's an Olympic champion.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Okay. Well, they floated to the top. See, I I don't know these people. Actually, I met Penny. I think I met Penny at the Gratic Games Meet, and she was amazing. So you know all these people, and they float to the top of this list. And there's many more, I could read you many more, but these people have absolutely Out swim scores over a thousand. These are studs. I mean, these are amazing people.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

They are. There's they're super agers, they're super performers, and they are the bottom line is they are so outswimming the aging tax, the biological aging tax, the curve.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

And so what Larry has done, for example, Lawrence Day, he is faster a little bit than what we would predict for the world record. Based on all the other times, all the other ages, all the other records we have for men doing the 200 backstroke. He's ahead of what would be predicted based on his age. So these accurately predict what the world record masters time should be at any age. These formulas, on average, have an R value of 0.986.986. That's amazing. So he's beating the curve. So yeah, it is what it is. That's just what the math says. It's just pure statistics.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, I really do like that.

The 22 Buckets Behind Accuracy

SPEAKER_01 23:11

And you even found with you had 22 buckets and explain a little bit, not don't go too many into the weaves, but you had sprint, middle, and distance, and then a section of each of those, and then all four strokes and genders.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah, yeah. So that's how you get to 22. So five strokes, including the IM. So freestyle, butterfly, backstroke, restrope, and I am. That's five. And then we have male and female. And then we have in the freestyle only, you have sprint, middle, and distance events. And in the other strokes, you don't have the long distance. You just have the sprint in the middle. And we've defined sprint as 100 meters or less. That's your 50s and hundreds. Your mid distance is anything, anything over 100. So that would be your 200, your 400, your 500, 200 yards or meters, 400 meters, 500 yards. That's your mid distance. And then anything over that, the 800, the 1000, the 1650 is long distance. So we created a formula for each one. Now I want you to use your imagination because we this is audio, people are listening. But imagine a chart with a vertical axis, the y-axis, which is a ratio of your time in the event divided by the world record time, the absolute, what we're calling the Katie Lidecki time, the absolute world record time in that event. There's the ratio, and those that's on the vertical axis. And then out on the x-axis is your age. And we go from 30 up to over 100. And it creates this beautiful curve. Well, those curves are different for every one of those 22 buckets. So every one of those buckets, what we're calling buckets that I just described, that's those categories, they have a different curve. And so that's what makes this so accurate and quantitative. This is very specific, very statistically, more much more advanced. So that's the 22 buckets, that's the 22 different formulas. And if you plot that curve, that shows where the world record and at that age should be for any event in that that bucket. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Okay, yes, I love that. Tell us which are the hardest strokes to do as we age.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Well, butterfly, of course. I think we all know that. I think we know that instinctively. And but this is where I think that researchers if you were trying to get a P, let's say you were trying to get your master, you do a master's thesis or PhD thesis, Alstrum opens up a whole lot of tools that you could use. Why does butterfly decay faster? And I have theories about it. I think that butterfly requires peak power to get your body kind of thrusting out of the water, it takes it takes uh a high intensity power to do that. And as we age, we lose that. Whereas freestyle is more steady effort, you don't have to burst out of the water in freestyle. I think that's why there's a tax on that. Now, also sprinting. So I was hoping the 50, I'm a 50 freestyle, I'm a sprinter. My best event ever, my swimming career peaked when I placed third at the high school state championship in Virginia back in 1981. But I was hoping that 50 freestyle would be one of those that ages quickly so that my outsource where we go up, but it's not. The old people can do the 50 freestyle pretty, pretty darn well. We do get worse at the longer events, which might surprise some people, but that's what we found. But the the curve now reflects that the butterfly is the one that with the the greatest age tax to it. And then the longer distances have a pretty pretty good age tax to them, also.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yes. So again, if people want the real science behind it, we're not going to have the exact formula, but we will have the graph on outswim.io.

Keeping Swimmers Competing For Life

SPEAKER_01 27:04

And another beautiful thing that I hope that outswim will do is allow younger swimmers not to retire. There seems to me to be a missing component of younger people who want to continue their competitive swimming career as adults. If you take the whole bell curve of United States master swimmers and you look at it, there's around 50,000 swimmers. And only 10% of those are competitive. They swim in meats. There's a disturbing trend when I hear a young swimmer say they're retiring from swimming. It just swimming is a lifelong sport. You do not have musicians retiring. I'm a 22-year-old guitarist and I'm very talented and elite at guitar, but I'm retiring from guitar. I'm not going to do guitar anymore. Or I'm retiring from being an artist, or you can fill in the whatever activity. But swimming, as someone who was a younger elite swimmer myself, I have continued to swim. And yes, I've continued to get slow, but I've found ways to challenge myself with technique or changing events or learning something different that I do in the pool. And I hope that this will allow younger swimmers not to retire, but to say, I'm going to outswim the curve. I will not necessarily go my Olympic times or my high school times or even my summer league times, but I'm going to outswim the curve. And that is one of the hopes that I really would like to change. Yes, all swimmers take breaks. All swimmers need breaks, but let's change it to let's press pause. I'm going to take a pause for my swimming career. And then when you come back, outswim should be a cool thing for that. Another way to recognize some of these real super agers that will inspire young people to say, yeah, I want to keep doing this sport.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And as a medical doctor, and I'm also an athlete, I'm a big-time cyclist. I'm also a runner. But cycling and running have some negative health consequences that swimming doesn't have. Swimming is such a great sport with on the joints, it's low impact. It's great for your cardiovascular, it's great for your flexibility. I love swimming.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I love that. Okay. Is there anything I've missed, Jim?

SPEAKER_00 29:39

I think when people hear this, they're going to want to go check their outswim score.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Where can people get their outswim score and how much does it cost to get an outswim score?

SPEAKER_00 29:49

They can go right to outswim.io and enter your information, register there at the site, and the cost is free.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Free is good.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah, free scum. It's hard to complain about free.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yeah, free is great. Okay. Go to outswim.io and it'll show you some things that hopefully will make you want to keep swimming for your entire life, which is the whole main point of out swim.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, and I and this is still we're still in beta. The website is fun right now, but it's probably going to change, maybe with more features coming up later. But people can get a feel for it right now and check it out.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yeah, and we do want feedback.

Where To Get It Free

SPEAKER_01 30:32

As a post-show, post-show, post-show. I hope people recognize you as do you get introduced as Maria's husband a lot?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Oh, yeah. Definitely in the cycling world where she's more famous than I am. I guess she won Race Across America. But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah, so people who are longtime listeners will realize that you are the gym that Maria, who was my co-host of Champions Mojo for a long time, and we're still best buddies and sister-in-laws, but our schedules just we couldn't continue to sync them up. And Maria is the she is the president and CEO of Cruise Bike.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, Cruise Bike is a front-wheel drive, recumbent bicycle. It's super comfortable, they're very fast, they're have many advantages over standard bikes, particularly road bikes. They can't do what a mountain bike can do, but on the pavement, on the road, they are just they're simply more comfortable, you have a better view, they're safer, you don't flip over your handlebars. They're great bikes. But Rin and I really enjoy riding them and also running the business.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah. And you have a book coming out about that, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

I'm working on a book about the whole cycling industry and cruise bike and a lot on in the medical realm on the dangers of the bicycle saddle, the standard bicycle saddle. There's a and it's already on the website. Some of this is if you go to cruise bike.com, that's cru-z-b-i-k-e.com, you can read about bicycle saddle diseases on there that I wrote that. Lots of references. That's I think I've got about 50 medical references in that article, but a lot of work went into that. A lot of good information. If listeners are also into cycling or know somebody into cycling, they ought to check out the website, cruisebike.com.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah, we I'm sure we have a lot of cyclists being, I know we have a lot of triathletes that listen. Well, Jim, I'm so grateful to have such a smart, amazing little brother. And I just love you so much.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And thanks for I hope people know how special you are too, Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

We have a very, very special friendship and relationship.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

I see the book you have in the back there, False Cure. You made a huge contribution to the to the medical world, to the health world with your work on that. And I just say that our mother, who was big inputs on us, I think she thought one of us was going to make a big contribution to medicine and thought it would be me because I'm a medical doctor, but it turns out it was you all along who were going to make the big change change healthcare for the world. And you already did that. So that's nice.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Well, we're each other's biggest fan club. So hopefully that our energy and our love for just putting good things in the world that outswim will help a lot of people, and we'll just we'll keep talking about it. Love you, brother.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

I love you too, sister.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

All right. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Thank you for listening to the Outswim podcast. Would you consider leaving us a five star review on Apple? That's like getting a best time for us. Kelly and our team would be so grateful. See you next week to help you outswim the age curve, outswim the competition, and outswim life's obstacles.